Still getting smoked: what other progression is there? - Guild Wars Forums

omedon666 · Feb 28, 2012, 01:29 PM // 13:29

I can almost guarantee that this has all been asked and answered in piecemeal before, but I wouldn't know how to word a search, so please bear with me.

I have recently dusted off my crit-happy A/R, loved him to pieces years ago, and I hoped that now, with 7 custom-built heroes, I could blaze through EotN and 30 HoM, no sweat.

But I'm still getting destroyed.

Maybe I'm not thinking in the right box, but as a longtime RPG'er, who enjoys intelligently earned success in pretty much every game I play, I feel extremely frustrated at this.

My question is this: since I shouldn't have to powergame and "homework" perfect builds for a straight-line PVE undertaking of seeing the story, beyond simply "being level 20", with 7 armor-capped heroes, what progression is there to undergo to soften the blow of getting absolutely ruined in EotN? Is it armour on ONE GUY (me)? If so, what merchant has the armor I need, and where do I find them.

I just find it unintuitively ludicrous that, having applied a reasonable variety to my heroes, having been generally intelligent about their builds and class make-up, that EotN is making me look much worse than I am at this genre of games.

I don't think it's so much "the game's too hard", it's just not sufficiently intuitive where the ladder is to "the next step" of progression. I shouldn't have to "min/max" every build on every hero for the GW equivalent of reaching the level cap, should I? That's kinda unreasonable, and not taught in the game.

So, within the game, not within wikis and website delving, where do I go to improve my success rate in PVE?

Thank you in advance for all constructive replies

T-Strudel · Feb 28, 2012, 01:46 PM // 13:46

It may be slightly outdated, but this guide has been very helpful for me. If you're not playing as an elementalist, you can still use the hero builds mentioned. I rarely enter a zone without the ST rit, Panic/Esurge mesmers, and necro healers.

A/R, I assume you're using the old Crit Barrage build? You mentioned Eotn, is the problem in explorable areas, storyline, or dungeons?

omedon666 · Feb 28, 2012, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Strudel

It may be slightly outdated, but this guide has been very helpful for me. If you're not playing as an elementalist, you can still use the hero builds mentioned. I rarely enter a zone without the ST rit, Panic/Esurge mesmers, and necro healers.

A/R, I assume you're using the old Crit Barrage build? You mentioned Eotn, is the problem in explorable areas, storyline, or dungeons?

Honestly, all my builds are out of my own head, I use a lot of sin buffs, and some bow attacks, but I never "researched" a build, since I believe that it's a game's job to teach the game, not the peripherals (wikis, forums), so this outreach is sort of a reluctant last ditch effort. I will look at the guide you posted (while grumbling about feeling like a cheater) and I greatly appreciate the link.

Honestly, first step out of the HoM and I was struggling. It's why I put it down years ago, but I'd like to grit my teeth and get it done now... Just...so demoralizing hehe.

Honestly, when people say "finish a campaign before tackling EotN!" I kinda boggle a bit, because the campaigns don't make you more powerful (except maybe unlocking armor merchants...) do they?

Again, thanks for the link, I'll adjust my playstyle if it's THAT needed, I just don't see how such an unintuitive leap in approach is warranted.

Lordkrall · Feb 28, 2012, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Keep in mind however that EotN is an EXPANSION it is supposed to be harder then the standard game(s).

omedon666 · Feb 28, 2012, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordkrall

Keep in mind however that EotN is an EXPANSION it is supposed to be harder then the standard game(s).

See, I get that, but harder *how*? And how does one logistically close the "gap" of "harder"? These games deal in numbers, and what I'm asking for is where in the game to go to up my numbers to meet the expansion's numbers?

Again, all I can think is I need to unlock some armor merchant or something.

Lordkrall · Feb 28, 2012, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Harder as in better mobs, more mobs, stronger mob builds, better mob synergies, higher levels.

I would assume your current problem is your build, as I would assume you have max armour.

Mr Dinkleberg · Feb 28, 2012, 02:32 PM // 14:32

There is an armor crafter in Boreal Station which makes max armor, if that was what you are looking for.
And if you are getting smoked, it's probably a problem with either your own oryour heroes' builds.

Pyrthas · Feb 28, 2012, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by omedon666

Honestly, all my builds are out of my own head, I use a lot of sin buffs, and some bow attacks, but I never "researched" a build, since I believe that it's a game's job to teach the game, not the peripherals (wikis, forums), so this outreach is sort of a reluctant last ditch effort.

I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I agree with the way you're putting things. The game's job isn't to teach you what the best builds are. Well, not directly, by telling you, "Use these 8 skills." That's boring, and also not really possible. The game's job is to give you a bunch of different skills and a rich variety of combat challenges. Your job is to figure out what the best build is, through experimentation and analysis of the challenges you're facing.

It teaches you that your builds are bad by killing you. You learn what builds are good by discovering that you die less often when you use them.

It's hard to do that on your own, though. If you want to do it with only in-game resources, you'd have to travel to every skill trainer and write all the skills down (for every profession!). Then you'd have to sit down and try to think of all the different combinations that might work. For you and your 7 heroes. Then you'd have to start trying them all out to see which ones work best in which situations.

Luckily, you don't need the best bars to complete most of the content. Any decent mix of 7 good hero bars will work. But it has to be a decent mix (are you doing enough damage to kill things before you die? if not, you need more damage or more defense), and they have to be decent bars (skills are not created equal; some are much worse than others; and don't try to make your ritualist an aoe monster when mesmers and elementalists do it so much better).

As with any attempt to figure things out, it goes faster if you have more people working on it. That's what forums and wikis are for.

Also, yes, you should have max armor if you don't. If using a wiki is more than you want, then you should explore either Kaineng, Droknar's, the Consulate Docks, or Boreal Station until you find an armorer. (Hold down alt (edit: or ctrl? I can never remember which) and look for someone with [Armor] after their name.) If you want to take advantage of the information that other people have gathered, you should go here.

Olle · Feb 28, 2012, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Without knowing what builds you run its quite hard to tell what you are doing wrong..

Coren747 · Feb 28, 2012, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Could you please give us the build you're using and that of your heroes? What armor you have and if you have runed them up at all (extra energy, attributes increase etc...)?

I agree that you shouldn't have to look on Wiki for builds, but you have to admit that if you bring a bad build, no ammount determination will save you

omedon666 · Feb 28, 2012, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

Without knowing what builds you run its quite hard to tell what you are doing wrong..

I suppose, I just disagree with the very idea of "wrong builds"... Then again the idea of that being faux pas is relatively new, and this is an old game.

I just want to make sure I am very clear about my appreciation for input here. I've been running with my main and clones of all my favorite longtime RPG characters/personas (indeed that's why I bought 8 merc slots right away!), and their builds are entirely conceptual (the pyromaniac, the pure healer, the blood Mage, the paladin defender, etc...), and I guess that I'm demoralized that, for the first time in my many years playing these games, that approach is critically incorrect. That just seems "wrong" to me, and it's never failed me before.

I'll look over the links and guides offered, and thanks again

Jeez... I don't even have anyone in the "cast" who "fits" as a mesmer...

Coren747 · Feb 28, 2012, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by omedon666

I suppose, I just disagree with the very idea of "wrong builds"... Then again the idea of that being faux pas is relatively new, and this is an old game.

I just want to make sure I am very clear about my appreciation for input here. I've been running with my main and clones of all my favorite longtime RPG characters/personas (indeed that's why I bought 8 merc slots right away!), and their builds are entirely conceptual (the pyromaniac, the pure healer, the blood Mage, the paladin defender, etc...), and I guess that I'm demoralized that, for the first time in my many years playing these games, that approach is critically incorrect. That just seems "wrong" to me, and it's never failed me before.

I'll look over the links and guides offered, and thanks again

Jeez... I don't even have anyone in the "cast" who "fits" as a mesmer...

It's simply that you can't see Guild Wars as a clone of every other game out there. That's why many people believe they're invincible because they are W/Mo, it just doesn't work that way

Pyrthas · Feb 28, 2012, 02:56 PM // 14:56

GW2 will be closer to what you want. GW was based on collectible card games, where the model is to give you a ton of things you can put in your deck and the challenge is to make a deck that works. Most random collections of cards are terrible decks, and most random collections of skills are terrible bars. You can make theme decks, but only within limits: first you have to understand the basics of deck construction. Likewise, you can make theme builds (especially with 8 full bars), but only within limits: first you need to understand what makes a group of 8 characters work.

omedon666 · Feb 28, 2012, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrthas

GW2 will be closer to what you want. GW was based on collectible card games, where the model is to give you a ton of things you can put in your deck and the challenge is to make a deck that works. Most random collections of cards are terrible decks, and most random collections of skills are terrible bars. You can make theme decks, but only within limits: first you have to understand the basics of deck construction. Likewise, you can make theme builds (especially with 8 full bars), but only within limits: first you need to understand what makes a group of 8 characters work.

The CCG parallel is a good one, and I can already see how I can possibly improve. I suppose the big advantage there, is much of that style of play can be "looked up"...

Guess I'd better start "looking up" hehe.

Maya Cerestiez · Feb 28, 2012, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrthas

GW2 will be closer to what you want. GW was based on collectible card games, where the model is to give you a ton of things you can put in your deck and the challenge is to make a deck that works. Most random collections of cards are terrible decks, and most random collections of skills are terrible bars. You can make theme decks, but only within limits: first you have to understand the basics of deck construction. Likewise, you can make theme builds (especially with 8 full bars), but only within limits: first you need to understand what makes a group of 8 characters work.

As an old competitive MTG-player I just loved this comparison! Great way to explain the whole concept of GW skill bars in a short and understandable way!

Quaker · Feb 28, 2012, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by omedon666

I have recently dusted off my crit-happy A/R, loved him to pieces years ago, and I hoped that now, with 7 custom-built heroes, I could blaze through EotN and 30 HoM, no sweat.

I never had a particularly difficult time with EotN in normal mode, - even before 7-heroes - so it's hard to say what would help.
Off the top of my head:

- you may be running one of those "crit happy" Sin builds from PvX. Many older builds don't work as well as they used to because of changes to the skills, and many of them were shaky to begin with. My Sin never used any of those builds. I just used a basic "damage the foes" build, which worked just fine for normal mode, anywhere.

- make sure that your Heroes are fully outfitted with the proper (and max) Runes, Insignias, weapons, etc. If you are just using them as they come "out of the box" they will not be that useful. Outfit them like you would outfit yourself.

- make sure you bring two healers - preferably 1 heal, 1 prot. They don't have to be Monks.

- you may want to try some of the various "way" team builds, but you can't go wrong with a team that has an MM, an SoS Rit, two healers, and practically anything else. My normal, default party, was me, an MM, an SoS, an HP monk, a Mo/Rt prot, an (air) Ele, a panic mesmer, and an interrupt ranger.

omedon666 · Feb 28, 2012, 03:20 PM // 15:20

In an effort to vindicate myself, I DID have (and do have) two healers right out of the gate! That just seemed a good idea

*Darcy* · Feb 28, 2012, 04:06 PM // 16:06

I think Pyrthas has pointed out your problem. GW is not set up like any other RPG game, single-player or on-line. You cannot win in GW without changing your mindset. The synergy between skills on a bar and synergy between team members is crucial.

The problem faced by people who haven't played GW in a while is that the GW Live Team is periodically tweaking the skills in their on-going attempt to balance the PvP and to nerf OP PvE builds. The builds that were your favorites three years ago will not work any longer and few of us have the time to do the research for new builds. We are very grateful to those who make that a priority.

aspi · Feb 28, 2012, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Some enemies in eotn are very resistant to fire damage, and for some odd reason Anet decided to change one of the best air magic bars so that's out too.
With one spirit pooper, one minion master and 2 mesmers there really should be no problem with you easing through EOTN. So I am curious what kind of builds you are running

omedon666 · Feb 28, 2012, 04:33 PM // 16:33

All I am really comfortable saying (about builds I used) is that I had no mesmers, because I played this RPG like an RPG, (crazy, I know :P) and didn't have a "mesmer character" on hand that I desired to play with, to portray.

Suffice to say, if I pick up GW again, it will be from a different, if disappointed, perspective.

Thanks all for your help.

Wish I'd asked before I spent the money on 8 merc slots and costumes for them, though.

Feb 28, 2012, 01:29 PM // 13:29	#1
omedon666 Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: House zu Heltzer Profession: A/R	Still getting smoked: what other progression is there? I can almost guarantee that this has all been asked and answered in piecemeal before, but I wouldn't know how to word a search, so please bear with me. I have recently dusted off my crit-happy A/R, loved him to pieces years ago, and I hoped that now, with 7 custom-built heroes, I could blaze through EotN and 30 HoM, no sweat. But I'm still getting destroyed. Maybe I'm not thinking in the right box, but as a longtime RPG'er, who enjoys intelligently earned success in pretty much every game I play, I feel extremely frustrated at this. My question is this: since I shouldn't have to powergame and "homework" perfect builds for a straight-line PVE undertaking of seeing the story, beyond simply "being level 20", with 7 armor-capped heroes, what progression is there to undergo to soften the blow of getting absolutely ruined in EotN? Is it armour on ONE GUY (me)? If so, what merchant has the armor I need, and where do I find them. I just find it unintuitively ludicrous that, having applied a reasonable variety to my heroes, having been generally intelligent about their builds and class make-up, that EotN is making me look much worse than I am at this genre of games. I don't think it's so much "the game's too hard", it's just not sufficiently intuitive where the ladder is to "the next step" of progression. I shouldn't have to "min/max" every build on every hero for the GW equivalent of reaching the level cap, should I? That's kinda unreasonable, and not taught in the game. So, within the game, not within wikis and website delving, where do I go to improve my success rate in PVE? Thank you in advance for all constructive replies Last edited by omedon666; Feb 28, 2012 at 01:47 PM // 13:47..

Feb 28, 2012, 04:06 PM // 16:06	#18
Darcy Never Too Old Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rhode Island where there are no GW contests Guild: Order of First Profession: W/R	I think Pyrthas has pointed out your problem. GW is not set up like any other RPG game, single-player or on-line. You cannot win in GW without changing your mindset. The synergy between skills on a bar and synergy between team members is crucial. The problem faced by people who haven't played GW in a while is that the GW Live Team is periodically tweaking the skills in their on-going attempt to balance the PvP and to nerf OP PvE builds. The builds that were your favorites three years ago will not work any longer and few of us have the time to do the research for new builds. We are very grateful to those who make that a priority. __________________ That's me, the old stick-in-the-mud non-fun moderator. (and non-understanding, also)

Feb 28, 2012, 04:33 PM // 16:33	#20
omedon666 Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: House zu Heltzer Profession: A/R	All I am really comfortable saying (about builds I used) is that I had no mesmers, because I played this RPG like an RPG, (crazy, I know :P) and didn't have a "mesmer character" on hand that I desired to play with, to portray. Suffice to say, if I pick up GW again, it will be from a different, if disappointed, perspective. Thanks all for your help. Wish I'd asked before I spent the money on 8 merc slots and costumes for them, though. Last edited by omedon666; Feb 28, 2012 at 04:38 PM // 16:38..

Feb 28, 2012, 01:46 PM // 13:46	#2
T-Strudel Academy Page Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gate of the Nightfallen Lands Guild: Above Pop Secret [PoPS] Profession: E/A	It may be slightly outdated, but this guide has been very helpful for me. If you're not playing as an elementalist, you can still use the hero builds mentioned. I rarely enter a zone without the ST rit, Panic/Esurge mesmers, and necro healers. A/R, I assume you're using the old Crit Barrage build? You mentioned Eotn, is the problem in explorable areas, storyline, or dungeons?

Feb 28, 2012, 02:20 PM // 14:20	#4
Lordkrall Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Jan 2011 Profession: W/	Keep in mind however that EotN is an EXPANSION it is supposed to be harder then the standard game(s).

Feb 28, 2012, 02:29 PM // 14:29	#6
Lordkrall Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Jan 2011 Profession: W/	Harder as in better mobs, more mobs, stronger mob builds, better mob synergies, higher levels. I would assume your current problem is your build, as I would assume you have max armour.

Feb 28, 2012, 02:32 PM // 14:32	#7
Mr Dinkleberg Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2011 Guild: UndiesPatrol Profession: Me/	There is an armor crafter in Boreal Station which makes max armor, if that was what you are looking for. And if you are getting smoked, it's probably a problem with either your own oryour heroes' builds.

Feb 28, 2012, 02:37 PM // 14:37	#9
Olle Furnace Stoker Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Ign: Miniature Julia Guild: Teh Academy[PhD] Profession: W/	Without knowing what builds you run its quite hard to tell what you are doing wrong..

Feb 28, 2012, 02:47 PM // 14:47	#10
Coren747 Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Feb 2012 Guild: Drakeborn Hunters Profession: Rt/Me	Could you please give us the build you're using and that of your heroes? What armor you have and if you have runed them up at all (extra energy, attributes increase etc...)? I agree that you shouldn't have to look on Wiki for builds, but you have to admit that if you bring a bad build, no ammount determination will save you

Feb 28, 2012, 02:56 PM // 14:56	#13
Pyrthas Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jun 2005 Profession: Me/	GW2 will be closer to what you want. GW was based on collectible card games, where the model is to give you a ton of things you can put in your deck and the challenge is to make a deck that works. Most random collections of cards are terrible decks, and most random collections of skills are terrible bars. You can make theme decks, but only within limits: first you have to understand the basics of deck construction. Likewise, you can make theme builds (especially with 8 full bars), but only within limits: first you need to understand what makes a group of 8 characters work.

Feb 28, 2012, 03:20 PM // 15:20	#17
omedon666 Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: House zu Heltzer Profession: A/R	In an effort to vindicate myself, I DID have (and do have) two healers right out of the gate! That just seemed a good idea

Feb 28, 2012, 04:25 PM // 16:25	#19
aspi Desert Nomad Join Date: Jan 2010 Guild: eeew Profession: N/Rt	Some enemies in eotn are very resistant to fire damage, and for some odd reason Anet decided to change one of the best air magic bars so that's out too. With one spirit pooper, one minion master and 2 mesmers there really should be no problem with you easing through EOTN. So I am curious what kind of builds you are running